SPEAKER_05 0:00

When I watched the first one, it blew me away. I think I texted you saying something like, Oh, this was it's so crazy, this was 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_06 0:07

It was 30 years ago. I think some of the brilliance of this franchise is it's relevant then in 1995, and it's relevant now in 2026. I'm Michelle. I've spent over 25 years in media and education. I'm Gina. I've spent over 15 years in Tekken Policy. We met because we were both working to make social media a better place to be from different angles.

SPEAKER_05 0:31

I had just started Meta's Global Information Ecosystem Program.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

And I was the executive director of the National Association for Media Literacy Education.

SPEAKER_05 0:40

We became friends because we're both obsessed with media. News, books, films, TV, and yes, digital content. We talked for hours about it, not always agreeing, but always learning from each other. There is so much media these days. And we wanted to create a space to process it and work through what it all means for our culture, our politics, and how we understand the world. And we're hoping you do too.

SPEAKER_06 1:03

This is Did You See with Gina and Michelle. Hi, Michelle. Hello, Gina. How are we doing? How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I am great. I do have to say I'm teaching an online class this summer, and I just want to shout out to all the teachers in the world that teach online and say, oh my gosh, this is so hard. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

Okay, Michelle, did you see that there was a World Cup recently? What?

SPEAKER_06 1:31

Yes, yes, I did see the World Cup. There was something going on about soccer, wasn't there?

SPEAKER_05 1:36

There was a little bit of soccer. I love World Cup season. It's such good vibes. Everybody's in a good mood and just the pride and the intercultural togetherness, sport bringing people together. I always love it, and life always feels so empty afterwards.

SPEAKER_06 1:52

Yeah, it's interesting because obviously in the US, it was huge this year because it happened here. And it was really fun to be involved and see all of that energy that you have been talking about.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

Yeah. It's very cool. It was an amazing World Cup. There were 104 matches played in six weeks. And it was a special World Cup for a lot of reasons. Like you said, it was in the States. This isn't the first time that the US has hosted the World Cup, but it is the first time that the World Cup was hosted in multiple countries. So the US and Canada and Mexico all together. But there were a lot of other firsts with this World Cup as well. It was the first World Cup that was expanded to 48 teams rather than just 32. Oh, that's a huge difference, if you think about it. Yeah. Wow. What I loved about the expanded competition was just how much it brought this really truly global feel. There were so many underdog teams that were able to get much farther along in the competition than was expected and were able to get a lot more attention than they probably would have in smaller competitions.

SPEAKER_06 2:59

What did you notice, since you have way more experience with World Cup than I do? What did you notice about the American part? Like, did it change being all over America at this moment in time?

SPEAKER_05 3:13

Yes, I think you can definitely see American influence in how the competition was presented. Oh. I think it's pretty clear that there is a lot of interest in the American market from FIFA and football as a sport. Even as much as soccer is played in the States, it's really pretty uh fresh as a market in terms of viewership for whatever reasons. So there were a few things that you could see in the American influence, probably the most obvious of which was the halftime show in the final. Is that there's never been? No. And it's interesting because the breaks are actually pretty heavily regulated. The halftime break is not supposed to be more than 15 minutes long.

SPEAKER_06 3:59

How long was it in the final? It was I didn't even notice this because I'm so used to halftime shows.

SPEAKER_05 4:05

Yeah. So they planned for the show to be 11 minutes and that the break was supposed to be no longer than 20 minutes, but because of whatever reasons, it went on for 27 and a half minutes. And the reason that the breaks get regulated is because you don't want the players' bodies to get cold during the break. There was also some concern about the pitch getting messed up. Oh my gosh. I didn't realize it was the first time. First and probably only. Really? Oh, that's you heard it here first. I mean, I think that the production of the show was incredible. It was curated by Chris Martin, produced by Global Citizen. It was presented as a fundraiser for the FIFA Foundation to raise awareness about making soccer accessible to kids around the world. Okay. What was cool about the Halftime show was that they featured artists from all around the world. So it really had this global feel. They had BTS from Korea, Justin Bieber from Canada, Shakira, who's Colombian, Berna Boy from Nigeria. They had the Simon Bolivar Symphony Orchestra from Venezuela performing with the Muppets, of course, and then PS22 and Madonna from the States. From that perspective, it really did a great job of just highlighting the global feel of the whole tournament.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

The World Cup has officially entered its Super Bowl era.

SPEAKER_06 5:30

I'd be really curious to know what the viewership was and how it, if the halftime show did anything. You listing all those people, I think to myself, oh my gosh, I feel like I missed something and I want to go watch it. It wasn't on my radar to watch the halftime show. And then I saw some clips of Justin Bieber and I was like, holy crap, Justin Bieber was at the World Cup final. Like I had no idea.

SPEAKER_05 5:53

Yeah, well, he was introduced by Ted Lasso and Coach Beard, if you're Ted Lasso fans. Okay, yeah. Clearly I missed out. The other thing that had a lot of American influence was the mandated hydration breaks. And this is a little bit controversial. So soccer games are usually played in two halves of 45 minutes each. What was new this time was that there was a mandated three-minute hydration break in the halfway point of each half. The official reasoning for the hydration breaks is player welfare, that the temperatures are getting hotter. The challenge with that argument, though, is that rather than saying, okay, let's do a break when the conditions demanded, they were mandated in all games, regardless of the temperatures or if the games were played indoors and air conditioning, these breaks were mandated. But the challenge with that is that football players or soccer players are used to playing 45 minutes straight through. Like that's just kind of the flow of the game. And when you break it up like that, you break the momentum and the energy of the game. It changes the game. Fans and coaches absolutely hate them.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

It changes the character of each half quite quite significantly because it gives you the chance to regroup, gives you the chance to change and and and to reset.

SPEAKER_05 7:19

It kind of creates the game more into this quarter format that American audiences are used to with American football. And it creates an opportunity for more ads. So in all of these three-minute breaks, ads were shown and over a billion dollars was made by broadcasters through the hydration breaks alone. 250 million additional ad revenue just in the United States to Fox Sports.

SPEAKER_06 7:46

That's an enormous amount of money and an indication from a business point of view that the hydration breaks were successful.

SPEAKER_05 7:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 7:56

Not necessarily for the sport, but for the business of the World Cup.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

What's interesting is that in some countries, like in the UK, they actually have regulation about how much ads can be shown within an hour, for example, or even throughout the whole day. So in the UK, audiences did not see ads during the hydration breaks. They got to just watch the players on the pitch or listen to punditry.

SPEAKER_06 8:20

Yeah, different countries saw different things during that time. I think that's a really important note, especially for American audiences, because we assume and are very comfortable with that space being driven by ads. We're so used to that. And the idea that there were people that were not seeing them is really interesting.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

Well, and if you compare it to the Super Bowl, for example, a lot of people are watching the Super Bowl for the ads. They're not even there for the game, right? And so for ads to now kind of become part of the soccer experience is really bringing in a lot of this sort of American capitalist kind of feel. The other thing that's interesting about how the US market is changing football is it's really increased the exposure of footballers. And there are some players who are already super famous in the football world that I feel like have been elevated now to just a whole new level because of the exposure to the American market through the World Cup. So David Beckham, for example, he's probably the first really famous footballer in the US. He's a former Manchester United player from the UK. He's done so much to advocate for soccer in the U.S. As owner of Inter Miami. He's brought so many players like Lionel Messi, for example, to the U.S. Through this World Cup, David Beckham made $25 million alone through ads and sponsorships. So he's really setting a model for how international footballers can build a brand and build value in the U.S. market. You're starting to see seeds getting planted with certain players like Harry Kane, for example, from England. I am sure that he is being recruited right now to come to the U.S. Killian Mbappe, Lamin Yamal, these guys, it's going to be really interesting to see what kinds of sponsorships and media deals they are getting as a result of the exposure they've gotten through the World Cup. We also cannot forget Erling Holland, who's been probably the biggest star to come out of the World Cup in the US market. He's already super famous in Premier League and Europe, but he's been really strategic and amazing with his social media.

SPEAKER_06 10:34

Yes, he's been all over. Did you see the conversation happening around masculinity and the World Cup? And to start with Erling Holland, my feed has been very much full of conversations about positive masculinity around the World Cup. So he in particular has brought an interesting perspective to masculinity because, for all intents and purpose, he's this enormously successful, powerful athlete who has like physical prowess too, and yet he is humble and kind and sweet and fun and really challenging some of our thoughts about masculinity and as it relates to athleticism.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

By every traditional measure, he's the definition of physical dominance. But watch how he treats people. Holland consistently seeks out his opponents to embrace them after the whistle. He celebrates with his teammates like they won the lottery together. He treats the trainers and support staff around him with the same respect he shows his coaches and teammates.

SPEAKER_06 11:36

And then, of course, we have Jude Bellingham, who is now the most famous Jude in the world because of his performance in the World Cup, but also some of his behavior and activity, the way he treated other players, the way he's talked about his mom and her influence.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, my mom's telling me all week to watch my language, watch my tackles, uh, watch my face, watch my emotions. So um, yeah, I think uh she she drilled it into me um all week about being careful of that yellow card.

SPEAKER_06 12:08

So it's been really interesting to me to watch some of the conversation about masculinity. On the other side, there's also some mocking that's happening in like memeing the way that professional athletes, especially professional soccer players. So I don't know if you've seen like all these memes about women who are like, when I'm eight months pregnant, I can lift this or do this, or I'm on my period and I'm doing this. But let's look at how male professional soccer players are writhing in pain because they got tapped. There's this like play on the emotionality of these male soccer players. Right. Which I think has been really interesting.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

It's obviously a very masculine environment. And at the same time, it's also highly emotional. I definitely have Argentina in my mind. Like the ones who kind of play very aggressively and behave kind of aggressively almost also express themselves in the most emotional way.

SPEAKER_06 13:10

Well, I think it's good that you brought up Argentina and just even just the behavior after the match, after they lost. Oh, yeah. The final, there seems to be this really interesting tension about masculinity. I'm sure it exists in every sport, but it was such a spotlight on this sport at this moment in time that I really took notice of it.

SPEAKER_05 13:29

Yes. I love that you mentioned Erlen Holland and Jude Bellingham, both of them, because they are actually friends for a long time. When they were young, they played at Dortmund together. And so you actually see in the games, a lot of times, even though Norway and England are playing against each other, they're still kind of jabbing at each other and having fun with each other and congratulating each other. It's really lovely.

SPEAKER_06 13:50

Oh my god, I'd love that I didn't know that. I like to think about those little guys playing together.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

I really love Jude Bellingham and Harlan's relationship. I thought it was so cute to witness their little friendship, them just on the rubbing foreheads. How romantic is that? Do you know what I mean? I've never had a man do that to me before. I just wanted them, I wanted Harlan to lift Jude in the air and fulfill the dirty dancing fantasy that we all had.

SPEAKER_06 14:11

So it's kind of cool that we're talking about male friendship because we are going to talk about a very special male friendship next. Gina, did you see Toy Story 5?

SPEAKER_05 14:28

I did. I saw it two days ago in the cinema at 11 a.m. with a bunch of school groups, and it was lovely. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_06 14:38

Oh my God, I didn't know that's how you saw it. This is the ultimate male friendship, right? Buzz Lightyear and Woody. Oh my gosh. Here we go. Yes. I love Buzz. That's funny. I'm a little bit more attached to Woody. Oh, interesting. Let's do a little bit of background, but then I really just want to hear what you thought. So, for those of you who don't know the Toy Story franchise, it focus on toys coming to life when humans are not around. And this particular film is set two years after the fourth film takes place. And it follows Jesse as she, Woody, and Buzz Lightyear have to deal with the presence of Lillipad, who is a tablet and the new favorite plaything of their kid, Bonnie. So ultimately it's about tech and how it affects play. What did you think of the movie? Let's start there. I loved it.

SPEAKER_05 15:36

I think this might be my favorite toy story. Ooh, tell me more. I definitely feel more connected with Bonnie than with Andy, who was the original child in the first movies. Even the first scene where she's feeling kind of awkward and left out with the other kids. I loved the conversation that they had about tech and play. In the beginning, I was a little bit nervous the way they kind of set it up, where it's almost like Bonnie's house is the only one without screens. And then there's kind of a very ominous lookout at the whole neighborhood where it's nighttime, and then you see everybody's in their own rooms with the glowing lights of the screens, and the old toys are kind of just like sitting outside rotting or waiting or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 16:22

Yeah, the beginning was really intensely severe. The language, I it's like they are both just sitting there doing nothing. The age of toys is over. Yes. The shock of your kids still play and that moment where it's like, what happened to you? And everyone's like, Tech, the screens have taken over.

SPEAKER_05 16:39

Yes. Very intense like messaging. I was worried at first, yeah, that it was gonna be overly simplified, just a super anti-screens message. But the way that they actually did it was so thoughtful, so balanced, and also just funny. Like I loved the Lillipad character. I love Greta Lee generally, but I just love how Lily was just so feisty and funny.

SPEAKER_06 17:08

The things that really stood out to me about the film, first of all, I love that this is ultimately Jesse's movie. She's the sheriff now, she's in charge. Yes. Buzz and Woody are now supporting characters to this really powerful female toy that is taking charge. I love that they added this new animation style to represent the kid's imagination. First of all, it plays with the art of animation and it was really beautifully done, but it also is nice to see that separation between what is the kid's imagination and what is happening for the toys. Yeah. I love this question of what it means to be a friend, real life or online. I think that that is at the core of this film. I love Bonnie and Blaze and their friendship that can finally develop. They're both unique and awkward and funny and they find each other. And I agree, like I do think the reckoning of the role technology plays for young kids and play and imagination is a really important one. Like they had to do this film. Yes like they had to do this film.

SPEAKER_05 18:29

But also about how fast tech and innovation happens. I love that they had older tech gadgets, the potty training toy and the very basic digital camera, and how even those had been discarded for newer tech, you know, and how they just show like it's also not just tech in itself, but it's also how that keeps advancing and changing as well.

SPEAKER_06 18:54

I think your points about the tech, the film starting with this idea that like the screens have won, but then how they're able to kind of work together with the technology and the way in which they utilize the power of communication and connection with tech, how they use the devices to communicate and get the toys back to Bonnie, but then connect Bonnie and Blaze. That was really all very effective. Yes. The way that the new buzzes were able to get everyone home because they have tech advancements that let them fly. Like the only way that they could get home was through this technology.

SPEAKER_05 19:36

Yes. And I thought it was really funny too how they were talking about the utility of tech. So there's a scene where Jesse is, I mean, she's mad at tech gadgets. And when they're trying to offer to help her because she's lost in Blaze's home and she's trying to get home to Bonnie. And so there's some of these old gadgets, like an old GPS and this old camera and this old body training toy. And she's really like not wanting to collaborate with them at all. And she insults them by saying that they're useless. Yes. And there was something about that that was so funny to me, having worked in tech for so long, because that is like the worst thing that you can say about a product. Like every tech product is made to have a use, to be useful.

SPEAKER_06 20:24

Isn't that interesting? It's like the worst possible insult. Yes. Yes. But these are supposed to be play things. But the point where she's like, you're not playing your game. That's different. Like the way she's trying to distinguish the two types of play is fascinating.

SPEAKER_05 20:41

That connected with me a lot because I feel like when I was younger, I don't think that I had a lot of free play in the way that the toys and Toy Story think about it. I had a lot of structured play, like games, or, you know, where these are the rules and this is how you know how to behave and stuff. And to me, that was play. She was really enjoying playing the game. And then when she was done, she's like, okay, now let's get on to real play. And it's interesting because I have had that experience with uh my partner's family, for example. They definitely play a lot more free play. And I've in the time that I've spent with this family, I've definitely had to develop my own way of playing make-believe and imagination-based free play because I never really exercised those muscles before.

SPEAKER_06 21:29

That is fascinating. My childhood was definitely like old school go outside, go to your backyard, go to your neighbors, and figure it out. Like we did a lot of free play in my childhood. And as a parent, that was something that was like super, super important to me. That my kids had significant time with just in a room with toys, go at it. Use your imagination, see what comes up. It's really that's so interesting. Interesting. Yeah, we didn't have any toys. Wait, what? Wait, oh my god. Yeah, we didn't have any toys.

SPEAKER_05 22:06

What do you mean you didn't have any toys? So every day I watched the film Sound of Music. And then on the off days, I would watch either Mary Poppins or My Fair Lady. And we had like a lot of fingernail polish bottles. And I used to build a stage. You know, like the in the set of uh Sound of Music where they would have the staircase and it goes down the middle in the ballroom. Absolutely. Yeah. I had these uh bottles of nail polish remover. Or no, sorry, just nail polish. I there was also Liesel was nail pol was the nail polish remover bottle. I am dying. They were like my dolls, and I would just recreate the sound of music. So I mean it is kind of play, but it's but you know, it's structured because I'm following a script and a musical structure in my play.

SPEAKER_06 22:52

But the idea that you figured out how to do it anyway is a really amazing example of the power of imagination. Like that's amazing. That's true. So wait, so what I want to wow, that you're blowing my mind right now. There were a couple of things in Toy Story 5 that I think they could have done better. And I want to know your opinion about that. Oh, okay, tell me. First is when they discovered, when Woody and Buzz discovered that they could tell LilyPad what to do, that by saying her name, Lily, that she should answer them. Yeah, I was like, excellent. Like this is good because this is the difference that we can tell tech what to do, that we have agency. Yes. And I feel like even though that's how they found her on the truck, they did not fully take advantage of that capability. And then the other thing is this idea that Woody's like, no, it's okay, guys, she's one of us. And the fact that Lillipad had all the emotions of a regular toy, there was something about that that I felt was a missed opportunity to make a distinction between tech and imaginative toys. Part of the issue is we need to teach young people that tech is not emotional. And even though it is programmed to make it seem like these are our friends and they are not. And so those were the two things that I was like, oh, I just feel like there was a missed opportunity there to kind of really show the distinction between tech toys and imaginative play.

SPEAKER_05 24:35

On your first point, that struck me as well that they show that she's designed to do what she's told to do. But there are times where she goes a little bit rogue to manipulate situations. Like she pretends to be Bonnie texting the dad to say put all the toys away. And what was kind of interesting to me about that though was that the analog toys also take action to manipulate situations. Like Jessie wants Bonnie to try to interact with the neighbor kids, so she throws herself outside of the fence to make Bonnie go outside.

SPEAKER_06 25:15

Excellent point. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 25:16

I thought that that foiling was kind of interesting. I feel like there was kind of a little bit more that they could have said about that. And to your second point, I think that that kind of comes to this question of what's a toy. Yes. Toy Story 4 was all about trash and basically trash being toys, which frankly, for a lot of dermaphobic people, is probably quite terrifying to think about. It's true. I I think that the message that Toy Story often has is about this idea of what is a toy, and then at the end of the day, we're all kind of toys here to serve the kids.

SPEAKER_06 25:55

Yeah, it speaks to the power of imagination, how young people can create toys with anything. I'm glad you brought up Toy Story 4. I think it's important for everyone to know that we did do a rewatch of all of them because we're very committed to our podcast art.

SPEAKER_05 26:10

We're thorough researchers.

SPEAKER_06 26:12

It's hard work, but somebody has to do it. It's kind of unbelievable that this franchise, these characters were born over 30 years ago. Oh my gosh. To remind people, the original Toy Story came out in 1995, and it was the first computer-generated movie ever. And it introduced us to Andy and Woody and Buzz Lightyear. It also introduced us to the most iconic lines in animated history. You are a toy!

SPEAKER_02 26:46

You're mocking me, aren't you? This isn't flying. This is falling with style.

SPEAKER_06 27:06

Roger Ebert said about the film at that point. I felt I was in at the dawn of a new era of movie animation, which draws on the best of cartoons in reality, creating a world somewhere in between where space not only bends, but snaps, crackles, and pops. Toy Story 2 was released in 99, Toy Story 3 in 2010, Toy Story 4 in 2019, and Toy Story 5 released in 2026. And so this narrative has been with us for over 30 years.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

When I watched the first one, it blew me away. I think I texted you saying something like, It's so crazy this was 20 years ago. It was 30 years ago. Yes. And the quality of the animation, I mean, yes, the new one is sharper and it has the different styles like you were talking about, but I honestly did not think that this film looked like it was 30 years old.

SPEAKER_06 28:02

I think some of the brilliance of this franchise is relevant then in 1995, and it's relevant now in 2026. Yeah. Not only does the animation hold up, the narrative holds up. Now, I do think Toy Story 1 in particular, there is some kind of like violence in there with like the Sid character, and you know, there's some scariness there that I don't want to.

SPEAKER_05 28:24

One, two and three are all scary.

SPEAKER_06 28:27

Yeah. Yes. There's some scary stuff there. And I think what it does brilliantly is how it builds and the tension builds over the course of these four films, and how there's always this kind of central struggle. The themes are really interesting about imagination and play. Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. We talk about like the duty and loyalty, this idea of unconditional friendship, the emotional attachment, the searching for purpose, and this kind of idea of letting go. Yeah. I think shows up in all of them. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:01

There's a lot of bittersweetness in these stories as well. And I think that ties to the loyalty question. Because these toys ultimately are there to serve their kid, but you know that your kid is going to grow up and that's what you want to happen. But then what does that mean for you and the purpose that you feel in your life? And I think it was actually really interesting how they show retirement options for the toys almost. So true. It's like sometimes you get packed up and you go to the attic, or sometimes you're gonna get donated and you're gonna find another home. Maybe you go to this daycare, or you end up like Bo Peep and you're a nomad and you're kind of moving around in the world. There was something very interesting and eloquent about that.

SPEAKER_06 29:54

That is really well like summarized, this idea of like what happens in the life of the toy, the idea that we have to accept things don't stay the same. I think what these films do really brilliantly is also appeal to the adults and the parents and teach us our lessons. Like these films not only mean a lot to me, but they meant a lot to my kids growing up. And I remember so specifically, you know, my son was born in 2002, my daughter in 2004. Like, I don't think we really introduced them to them until around the time Toy Story 3 came out. But I remember specifically being excited to introduce them because not only did I think the messaging was important and that it was beautiful animation, but it was a good movie. Yeah. And there were so many animated movies that were out there for my kids to watch that I didn't enjoy, that I was like, oh, but this was one that I could enjoy. And the lessons were important. This idea of having a difficult time accepting that things will change. Right. Parents need to hear that.

SPEAKER_05 31:02

I wonder if that's in a way why I I feel more connected to the movies now than I did when they first came out. Because, like I said, I really didn't identify with Andy at all as a kid. And so I wonder if there's something about just the themes that they're talking about resonate so much more with me as an adult.

SPEAKER_06 31:21

One thing that the animation did improve on was humans. Like the early Andy and mom were very non-descriptive in some ways. And Bonnie is a much more descriptive character, but the animation is better. Yes. I think also like we weren't supposed to bond with Andy. We were supposed to bond with the toys. Right. So I agree with you. Bonnie is such like the character is so alive.

SPEAKER_05 31:53

There was an interesting interview that I'd seen a clip of Tom Hanks where he was talking about how actually they had recorded a whole version of Toy Story, and John Lassar was like, this is just not working.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

John called up and he said, Hey, listen, we've looked at it, and you know, it's it's just not working. And we would like to start all over from scratch.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

How long had you been working?

SPEAKER_02 32:16

We had worked been working on it for about two years. I will say about two years. Wow. So then we began the process all over again, which is about a two and a half to three year process.

SPEAKER_06 32:25

When we talk about media education and we talk about media literacy education, we don't talk about animation enough. Animation is such a powerful form of media for all of us, but especially for young people. Yeah. My students, most of them are eight 18 to 24. The amount of animation they consume and anime they consume is astounding. And I think Pixar, they made animation such a reputable form of entertainment. Certainly in this country.

SPEAKER_05 32:58

Well, it's interesting because I was looking back at the history of Pixar. I did not know that Pixar actually started as part of Lucasfilm, as part of George Lucas's company in 1979. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that yeah, isn't that wild? And then Steve Jobs, because there was a time where he had been kicked out of Apple, and during that time, he actually bought this computer division from George Lucas, and that's when he established it as an independent company called Pixar. And Disney was Pixar's first paying client. They were making shorts and commercials and stuff, and then they started on Toy Store in 1990, and it opened in 1995. So it's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 33:38

It is these players that you're bringing up, George Lucas, Steve Jobs, these enormous players in the industry. But animation up to that point was hand-drawn or stop motion, right? So they developed this 3D rendering software called Render Man. And this is it became the industry standard for calculating lighting and shadows and textures and all this stuff. But this was all new in 1985. So when Toy Story came out, people were like, holy crap, what is possible?

SPEAKER_05 34:07

I do have one gripe about the Toy Story themes though, which is why do the toys have to be paired up and get married? There's like a love interest in almost every single one. Woody and Bo, Buzz and Jesse. I mean, potato heads, okay, sure, they come in a set. But you know, even Forky gets a knifey. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 34:28

Oh, yes. So that's my one gripe. My one gripe is why the hell doesn't bullseye talk? Why doesn't bullseye get a bullseye? It's a horse, Michelle. Yeah, but not a dog or a dinosaur. Slinky is a dog. Why does bullseye not talk? It's ridiculous. Give bullseye a voice. I agree. Give horses a voice. I agree. Horses deserve to speak. So the biggest thing, though, with Pixar's journey is Disney's acquisition of it. Right. So Disney acquired it in 2006, but we do need to remember that prior to that acquisition, Pixar had made not only Toy Story, but it also made A Bug's Life, had also made Toy Story 2, Monsters Inc., Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, and Cars was released just one month after the acquisition was finalized. So you could only imagine Disney animation watching Pixar create these industry-changing films. Yeah. And just wanting to get a piece of it. And ultimately, Pixar's acquisition, you know, saved Disney animation in a lot of ways. Oh, that's interesting. I haven't thought about it like that. But yeah, I I can see that. Definitely. And it also speaks to what we have to consider from a need media ecosystem point of view, which is consolidation. Yes. Pixar and Disney Animation being under the same umbrella, they have just a monopoly on this art form in a lot of ways. And Lucas film is owned by Disney now too, right? Yes. So it has had just a wide-ranging impact, not only on me personally, but also on the industry. Yeah. I I think that Pixar has really changed the game and Toy Story, even just talking about it, makes me want to go and watch more. And that is that's powerful to be that good at storytelling that even after we just watch all the movies again, I want to go back. Which one would you want to go watch? I have a strong connection to the third one, and I think that's because that was the first one I saw with my kids. I had seen Toy Story One and Two before they saw it, but Toy Story Three we saw together. Introducing Toy Story to them was really powerful for me for whatever reason. So Toy Story Three. I think three is the scariest one. Oh my god, I thought they were gonna die. Yeah, so did they. Yeah. I was like, they're gonna die. I don't know why, but I really like Forky. I know Forky. You love the trash conversation.

SPEAKER_05 37:09

I love yeah, I I love trash, maybe. I love that he was so he was just like, nope, this is not for me. I'm out of here. And he really had to kind of evolve his thinking. And what connected him with Bonnie was relating himself to trash, to saying that he makes Bonnie feel like what trash feels like to him.

SPEAKER_06 37:29

Toy Story Four, I found a little freakier because those damn toys in that antique store were freaky. Debbie Abby. Oh my god, they were freaky. But let's do a shout out to Bo Peep because she doesn't get enough love and she is a badass.

SPEAKER_05 37:43

Oh, yeah. Can we do a shout out to Andy Potts also, just generally, because I love her since designing women.

SPEAKER_06 37:49

I think a lot about what I would want Toy Story Six to be. Mm-hmm. I think we need a prequel. Oh, interesting. I think we need to see Andy get Woody.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

Oh, that is very interesting.

SPEAKER_06 38:06

I think we need to go back and we need to see Andy when he was like Bonnie's age or like younger when we first meet Bonnie. Right. We need to see that relationship grow. That's what I would like to see Toy Story 6.

SPEAKER_05 38:19

That's interesting. I have to be honest with you. I think Andy and Woody are my least favorite characters. You know what? I'll give you that. But I would be happy for you for that movie to come out. Thank you. You know, I my mind can be changed. So maybe that's the movie we need. What do you think? Like what could happen next? Okay, well, I feel like the plot lines are often that there's a new toy that comes into the group. And so to me, the new toy would be something related to AI. And so I was thinking maybe it would be an AI version of the existing toys. So like an AI Jesse or an AI Buzz. And then you could have some interesting comparisons between the AI version and the analog version and these questions about the sentience of robots and kind of this question about building an emotional connection with chatbots and robots. There's so much discussion about that right now. But how does that compare with building an emotional connection with any inanimate object like an analog toy?

SPEAKER_06 39:23

I have to say that Pixar better start calling because these are two really good ideas.

SPEAKER_05 39:28

Funny things too about just like the limitations of AI. You know, like Jesse keeps repeating herself, you know, and keeps encouraging bad ideas or something. Sorry.

SPEAKER_06 39:36

I I love your idea. I would totally purchase it if I worked in Pixar development. To go back to my idea, yeah. I do think this idea of introducing a new toy. So what was it like to introduce Woody? Yes. And who did Woody replace? And Woody, yeah, Woody just takes over. Yes. And like Woody has like a hero complex. Like, oh my goodness. He's kind of a pain in the ass.

SPEAKER_05 39:58

Everything's all about Woody. Yeah. It is interesting. What what did he, yeah? Was it like a stuffed bunny? And I bet you Mr. Potato Head was there. Yes. So that must have been hard for them.

SPEAKER_06 40:10

Okay, I'm in it. I'm I'm I'm down. I like this.

SPEAKER_05 40:13

So maybe we have Toy Story Six and Seven. So this is great. It would have to be like Star Wars. Like it would have to be Toy Story Zero. Yes. You know? Yes. Toy Story Half.

SPEAKER_06 40:24

Yes, Toy Story Half. Let's talk about recommendations to continue this conversation because there is so much deep diving that you can do about Pixar itself. Yeah, my 24-year-old son gave me this book called Creativity Inc., which is by the president of Pixar Animation. It's really about overcoming the unseen forces that stand in the way of true inspiration. But there's also the whole Pixar theory, which, if you want to take a deep dive on, is really all about how all of these movies in the Pixar universe are connected. The theory is that all of these films are connected, and there's all of these Easter eggs and all of these films connecting them all. Then there's also something that I review when I do talk about this in my class with undergraduates is about the storytelling rules with Pixar. And you could Google 22 rules of storytelling by Pixar, and it's a really fascinating study in storytelling and narrative building because basically all their films really are structured very similarly.

SPEAKER_05 41:38

I haven't heard much about either of those. Both are really interesting. My recommendation is a sort of documentary series, I guess you could call it, on Disney Plus. It's called Inside Pixar. It came out in 2020, and each episode, it's kind of like a vignette, like a 12 to 15-minute vignette that highlights a certain person who works at Pixar. Oh. There's one about a writer, one about an artist, about a production assistant, there's one about the on-site pastry chef. There's a story about the team that is responsible for localizing the films for global markets. I just love seeing people at work. I love seeing people who are good at their jobs and enjoy their jobs, and it really gives you a sense of how many people it takes to produce these films.

SPEAKER_06 42:26

So let's just say, let's end this here. We're not getting paid, but everyone should watch this series. Everyone should go see Toy Story 5. This is great work, and we highly recommend. Amen. Thank you for listening. See you next time. See you next time to Infinity and Beyond.

SPEAKER_05 42:49

Michelle Chula Lipkin has been a media literacy educator and advocate for the last 25 years. She teaches at the City University of New York and writes, presents, and consults on topics related to media and tech. You can find her at michellechulalipkin.com.

SPEAKER_06 43:03

Gina Wu spent 15 years in tech, building Uber as the first person on the ground in European and U.S. markets, and founding Meta's Global Information Ecosystem Program. Today she is the author of Feed for Thought, a newsletter that explores how digital platforms are reshaping standards for authority, expertise, and trust.

SPEAKER_05 43:23

Did you see with Gina and Michelle is produced by Stevie Starr.

SPEAKER_06 43:27

Our theme song is by Laundrie Day.